榫卯Talks | 胡如珊:城市是文化生产的场所,是集体回忆的基础

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胡如珊毕业于加州大学伯克莱建筑学院,获建筑学学士学位;之后又获得普林斯顿大学建筑及城市规划硕士学位。在2004年,胡如珊女士与郭锡恩先生共同创立了如恩设计研究室(NERI&HU)。

作为中国当代先锋女性建筑师,坚持以作品来说话。其作品在坚持先锋立场的同时,往往给人带来本土的记忆。不刻意追求形式的背后,对设计问题的深入分析研究,做具有批判思维的建筑师。

2017年5月7日14:00-17:30,清华大学学生文化活动中心多功能厅,榫卯Talks,让我们一起分享她最为独到的建筑观点。

——编者

受访人:胡如珊

如恩设计(Neri&Hu)与设计共和(Design Republic)

创始合伙人

普林斯顿大学建筑及城市规划硕士

2016&2015同济大学建筑与城市规划学院硕博研究生课程客座讲师

2017年EDIDA国际设计大奖年度设计师


Q:上海对你们来说意味着什么?上海的本土元素是否会融入你们的设计之中?

A:我的父亲是上海人,从上海到台湾、到美国,最终又回到了上海,在这里工作生活。我的设计灵感大部分来源于日常的生活,平凡的人,普通的事,当然也包括上海这座城市的独特肌理,城市内外发生的日常活动与事件都是我们创意的源泉。

与伦敦或纽约不同,上海这座亚洲城市蕴含着许多亚洲以及中国的元素。在某些方面,它其实有着非常多的本土特色,不像伦敦、纽约这样的城市那么现代化。比如,在市井深处的一些街巷,你完全看不到任何国际大都市的元素,它仍然和20年前一样,具有它自身独特的吸引力。

My father was from Shanghai, and I felt it was a personal coming-back-forth circle for me to move back and to practice to Shanghai.

I’m very much inspired by the everyday, the mundane and the ordinary. The very fabric of Shanghai as a city and the everyday activities in and around the city is very much an inspiration.

Shanghai is mostly different from London and New York because it is an Asian city, so the qualities of Asia/China, is embedded within everything we see around the city.It is also very raw in certain parts, in ways that you can no longer see in more modernized cities like NY and London.For example, within some lanes and in small strips of the city you cannot see any sign of the world at large, it's still like how the city was 20 years ago, and that in itself is very charming.

▲郭锡恩与胡如珊


Q:如恩有很多上海老房子的改造项目,在选择材料上,你们是如何考虑的?

A:这些老房子的改造有时会采用相同的材料,并在临时的场景中重复使用,如红砖、灰砖;有时又会运用具有古典现代主义意义的普通材料来展现装饰历史与现代主义简洁之间的对话,例如大面积的透明玻璃,锋利的槽钢,白石膏或石膏板。浅橡木或深胡桃木等天然材料常用作室内装饰,能营造出温暖的空间氛围,平衡历史建筑的过去与未来。

Sometimes it is taking the same material and repeating it in temporary context, such as red or grey bricks, other times it is using quiet, ordinary material in the classical sense of modernism to showcase a dialogue between the ornamented history and the cleanliness of modernity, such as large panels of clear glass, sharp- edged steel channels, and white plaster or gypsum board. Natural wood, either light oak or dark walnut, have often been considered for interior finishes, for the warmth it brings to a space, and the balance it brings to a historic building that mediates between past and future.


Q:在项目的建造过程中,你们是否遇到过特别难以解决的问题?又是如何处理的?

A:时间的限制是最大的难题,很多的项目都需要在“昨天”完成,我们希望能够有更多的时间和空间对设计进行综合考虑。

有时候也会遇到一些比较难沟通的业主。对于一个项目的构想和概念会有不同的意见,这样的问题还是会通过更多的沟通的来解决,但是也会消耗很多的时间和精力。

Time constraint is the biggest problem. All projects need to be finished yesterday, which leaves little room or time to think about design in a comprehensive way.

Difficult client is another big issue.It is always hard to work with people who don't see your vision and do not support your ideas.

▲上海田子坊私宅


Q:在如恩诸多酒店建筑的设计中,你们是否秉持着类似的一种审美倾向?

A:在设计的时候,我们很少会用某种风格来定义自己。如果一定要加个标签的话,我们觉得自己是“具有批判性思维的建筑师”,深入研究问题,并找出对应的解决办法。我们对空间和材料的本质有自己的执念和解读,因而会更多倾向于接近天然材料和柔和色调的审美。

We rarely think of the labeling of styles when we design.If anything, we like to see ourselves as “critical thinking architects”, where we probe into problems in a deep way and come up with resolutions that respond to the problem.We uphold a certain obsession and ideal about the "truth" in space and material, and therefore it naturally leads to an aesthetic that is closer to natural materials and a muted color palette.

▲南外滩水舍精品酒店


Q:如恩在保持国际性的同时,是怎样传递中国的本土意识的?你们试图去创造一种“中国设计”吗?

A:国际的设计每时每刻都在向中国渗透,中国自己也在飞速地吸收着这些能量。这种现象带来的一个问题就是大部分人对自己所看到和使用的东西并不在意,无论好坏与否,适合与否,都被全盘接受。

我们一开始接受的是西方传统建筑教育,但从文化上来说,我们又非常本土化(中国化),这种融合无疑对我们有着很大的影响,特别是对于国内的项目。但对于国外的项目,我们也会去探索项目当地的文化和历史。

我们不会去刻意做什么,而且这种本地化的探索并不适用于所有项目类型。但有些时候,我们也会尝试寻找传递、展现“文化”的新方法。建筑中体现的文化是很难形容的,但我们的目标和兴趣是尝试新的方式,并唤醒一种不同于以往的一成不变或过度使用的中国文化意识。

China is being infiltrated with global energy and design influence on a daily basis, and the absorption rate is extremely high.The problem that comes with this phenomenon is that people are not quite critical about what they see and use, so regardless of good/bad, appropriate/inappropriate, they are all being taken in.

The traditional western architectural rhetoric form the basis of our education, but culturally we are very much Chinese, and there are Influences particularly in our work that’s located in China. We also like to examine local culture of where our work is so that depends on where the project is located.

We don't try to do anything forced, and such exploration isn't appropriate for every project type.When it is interesting, however, we do try to find new ways of expressing and representing "culture", in a way.What culture is in architecture is hard to say, but our intention and interest is trying ways that are fresh and evokes a different sense of Chinese culture from the one that's stereotypical or overly used.

▲郭锡恩与胡如珊


Q:你认为的城市应该是怎样的?设计师在这样的语境下应该扮演怎样的角色?

A:我认为城市是文化生产的场所,是集体回忆的基础,意义远远超越了现今大多数城市规划者所关注的数据和图表。我认为,它的神圣和象征功能要比实际的居住功能更为重要。我认为现今建筑师的角色与阿尔伯蒂时期并无太大差异。当时他认为建筑师是哲学家、才艺学生,在文化领域具有重要的领导地位。考虑到这一点,我的工作不只是听从大家的商业意见,而是在与开发商/业主的合作中保持高度敏锐感。我们不仅要评判业主的要求,也要评判我们自己的工作。我们应该坚信一些先锋的东西,不屈服于平庸或无意义。我们每个人可能关心的问题都不同,环境、美学或形式等等,无论如何,这就是我们应该坚定的立场。

I believe the city to be the site for cultural production and the ground for collective memory that goes beyond just data and charts that most urbanists today is focusing on.I believe that the sacred and symbolic functions are more important than its practical settlement functions. I see the role of the architect today as still not too different from Alberti's time, when he advocated for the Architect as philosopher and students of many arts, that the Architect has an important leadership role in the cultural realm. With this in mind, our job is not simply to "go with the flow" in a commercial sense, nor do we work alongside developers as "clients" without bringing a keen sense of criticality into everything we do.We must be our client's critic as well as our own work's critic.We should be the vanguard of those things that we believe in, and not succumb to mediocrity nor meaninglessness. Each of us may be concerned with different issues, some environmental, others aesthetics and formalism...etc.Whatever it is, that's what we ought to stand up firmly for.

Q:扎根城市不是一件容易的事。在国内这样的大环境下,建筑师会经常面临一些现实的局限,如时间压力或一些不可预测的条件等,通常你是如何应对的?从最初的建筑实践到现在,你是如何坚持自己的设计哲学,保证在每个项目里都有自己的研究和探索?

A:首先,要与合适的业主合作,当这些业主与你一样对某一问题感兴趣,他们就会为你的探索或尝试买单。当这样的业主找到你,他们也会把你的这种探索视为对他们有价值的东西,有时是一种商业/品牌价值,有时是项目的原创性,这些能驱使他们的野心和合作精神。

我们还需要坚持我们的价值体系,而不轻易受到时尚或潮流的影响。在探索和尝试过程中的每一个环节都保持批判,并且拒绝随波逐流,这是我们认为至关重要的态度。

The beginning is working with the right clients who are interested in the same issues as you, because in a way they have to pay the bill for your exploration.When you have the right client, they will see this exploration as something valuable for them as well, sometimes it is a business/brand value, other times it is the originality of the project that drives their ambition and collaborative spirit.

We also need to hold on to our value system and not be easily swayed by fashion or trend. Stay critical in every step of the process and be courageous to go against the tide is very important.

Q:虽然不太赞同将女性建筑师单独拿出来讨论,但实在忍不住好奇。作为国内较知名的女性建筑师之一,你觉得自己的优势在哪里?又有哪些挑战呢?

A:老实说,我的性别没带给我什么优势,我的合伙人是一位男性,所以我们是一个非常平衡的组合。

我也不认为我是一个独自实践的设计师,事实上,我和我的团队一起工作,而不是像画家或音乐家一样自己单独完成工作。挑战很多,无处不在,而且不只局限于中国。打破默守陈规总是很难,这对谁来说都一样。因此要把重点放在工作上,不要听太多与工作无关的谣传或议论。

大多数人会通过封面来评判一本书的好坏,也许很多人,尤其是在项目会议上第一次见到我的业主和顾问,他们一开始不会像对待同年龄、同经验的男性建筑师一样尊重我。因此我需要更努力,更好地工作,让我的作品,而不是我的性别、肤色或面孔来说话。

No strength, really, because I practice with my partner who is a man, so we are seen as a balanced duo. I like to see my strength as coming from my training, my background, my discipline and critical thinking, rather than being female.

I also don't think I am taken as a solo designer, and in fact I work with the office in a team and never perform solo, unlike a painter or musician.The challenges are more, but the challenges are everywhere and not just China.Fighting stereotype is always hard, but who doesn’t? In one way or another?So it is important to focus on the work, and not listen too much to rumors or criticisms beyond the work itself.

Most judge a book by its cover, and at first glance maybe a lot of people, especially clients and consultants who first meet me in a project meeting will not respect you as much as if I were a man of the same age and experience.So you just work harder to perform better, and let your work speak instead of your gender, color, or face.


▲胡如珊

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