《海边的曼彻斯特》—— LivAway Movie Talks

96
VincentChan文森
2017.11.22 13:01* 字数 15511

编辑整理:Vincent 英语听写:Bingo, Selina, Vincent, JY 翻译:Bingo, Vincent

Editor:Vincent Dictation:Bingo, Selina, Vincent, JY Translation:Bingo, Vincent

We hosted this intercultural movie talks last weekend, there are both expats and locals on the scene.

周末组织的一场观影活动 LivAway Movie Talks,现场有中有外。

观影并不特别重要,有意思的是观影后的跨文化讨论。2个小时的时间,根据各种话题,现场摩擦出不同文化间的火花。

The watching movie part is not so important, the real hit is the intercultural discussion afterwards. In 2 hours time, thoughts and opinions of different cultural background have been shared.

根据主题,将大家的发言的中英文版本整理如下:

(所有人英语发言,中文为翻译稿。)

关于电影 About the Movie

Mr D.: It’s difficult to understand this film. I think it is a very serious movie. I’m asking who chose this film. Because this kind of movie you chose is very serious and I don’t know the level that everybody understand this film. My first question is can you understand the film and where you don’t understand. This is not a studio film you can see. There is no star here. Casey Affleck is a very big star, but he isn’t a star. The movie cost 8.5 million. That means nobody got a salary, everybody made this movie for free. But the movie made money. The movie made lots of money. Because there are 8.5 million, and it sells 70 million. That means the movie made 10 times more money. Also the director, generous amount were paid for everybody more than they want. But actually, he started the movie, he didn’t know it’s not enough, so everybody worked for free. The story is so powerful you can see. Why the main actors like that. Three children were burnt and died, it’s that right. You saw that right. The music they play, a work of Albinoni, the most tragic music of the time. How powerful the film and music are. All the flashbacks are connected to the tragedy.

Mr D. :这个电影其实有点难懂。这是部很严肃的电影。所以我要问谁选了这部电影。不是每个人都能理解这部电影的。我想问一下,大家能看懂这部电影吗?哪里看不懂?你们可以看得出这不是一部片场电影。片中没有明星,Casey Affleck不是个明星。电影拍摄一共花了850万美金。这意味着没有人领工资,大家都是义务奉献。但是这部电影赚了不少钱。制作费用850万,票房7000万,赚了差不多10倍。导演之后大方地给大家发了奖金。但一开始他不知道预算会不足,所以大家都是免费拍摄的。故事非常有力量。男主角为什么会那样?他的三个孩子都死了。原声音乐也很棒,是Albinoni的音乐,可能是史上最悲惨的音乐之一。电影和音乐都很有力量。所有的闪回都是和悲剧有关的。

Vincent: Thank you Mr. D. Another professional comment on this movie. This is true. I asked friend who also watched this movie, do you know flashbacks all about in this movie?  She suddenly realized that there are four or five scenes that she totally misunderstood. Those flashbacks are about when Patrick was young. There is a basement that Patrick jumped to look out the window. It’s actually a flashback. It’s when Lee is thinking about the past, that is what we called the flashback. Does anybody know how many flashbacks in this movie?

Vincent:感谢Mr D的专业点评。确实,我问一个看过这部电影的朋友:那些闪回是什么意思,她突然意识到电影里有好几个场景她其实没看懂。有一个闪回是Patrick小时候,一个地下室,Patrick跳着看窗外。这实际上是一个闪回,是Lee回忆的过去。大家知道电影里多少闪回吗?

Mr D.: What do we call flashback in Chinese?

Vincent: 闪回. You know who is the master of flashback?Christopher Nolan. He is a huge fan of flashback. He uses flashback quite tricky. When every flashback happened, it always comes with really nice music to hit rhythm.

Mr D:Flashback在中文里什么说?

Vincent:闪回。大家知道谁是闪回的大师吗?克里斯多夫诺兰。他闪回使用得非常有技巧,而且每个闪回都伴随着很好听的音乐打在画面切换的节奏上。

Selina: At the beginning I couldn't understand. Is that the father? is that the bother? I also have another point. When I was watching, I really wish something will be changed, but it didn’t and it just like that. It made me feel so down. We all made troubles in our life. We all want to be supported, especially when we made mistakes and when we were down. When Lee is in that situation all the time, I really want something to be changed, like Sandy’s mommy. I wish that some other stories will happen. People will be happy and his life will be changed. But it didn’t happen, so I feel like oh my god. Maybe just like Bingo said, what we should learn from it is we should try to be stronger and find a way to live another life if something bad happen to us. That is my point. Thank you.

Selina:一开始其实我也看不懂。那个是父亲吗?那个是兄弟吗?我还有要说的。当我在看的时候,我真的希望事情能有所改变,但最后什么都没改变。这让我非常失望。生命中我们每个人都会惹上麻烦。我们都需要支持,特别是在我们犯错了之后或者感觉不如意时。当Lee在那样的处境中,我真心希望情况会发生改变,比如Sandy的妈妈。我希望会有其他的故事发生。可能大家都会快乐起来,他的生活也会改变。但最后这些都没有发生。所以我觉得……非常失望。可能就像Bingo说的,我们从这个电影能学到什么呢?我觉得应该是——当坏事找上你,我们应该努力变得更强大,重新振作起来。

Mr D.: This movie reminds me of a film called The Shawshank Redemption. This movie is very popular in China. I think this is one of the most popular film in China. Everybody saw this film. Actually it tells me what kind of movie that Chinese people like. Chinese people went to a lot of difficulties in the past. Unfortunately, the movie you made in China, you have so many stories like this or even stronger stories like this, but you don't have a storyteller who can tell this right? Actually, the director did not try to make you cry. There is some point so touched that make you cry. It’s not like FengXiaoGang. He likes to make movie commercial and more successful, and he is a powerful director. He knows his audience that's how he makes movie in China.

One thing I like about this film is that it’s very common in American this man actually goes to prison, Lee. I am surprised that the police let him go. The police accepted it that this is not his fault. American legal system and American prosecutors are evil in America. Those evil prosecutors they always want to be hero. The prosecutors actually killed Michael Jackson. They want to be hero. It’s the culture of America, everyone wants to be hero. The prosecutors often go after people and put them to prison. Actually, he can be charge involuntary manslaughter, means that you killed people but it’s not your fault. In America, you convict those people and then keep them in jail maybe two years or even longer to live difficult. It’s very common. This movie didn’t see that, it did not happen. This is the bright side from my point of view. I actually like the idea that the director chose not to put him in prison and let him suffer from it.

Mr D:这部电影让我想到另外一部电影:《肖生克的救赎》。这个电影在中国非常受欢迎,很可能是全中国最受欢迎的电影之一。每个人都看过。实际上这也揭示了中国人喜欢看什么电影。中国人过去活得很艰苦。不幸的是,在中国有很多很有力量的电影题材,没有一个很好的讲故事的人。导演并不是要弄哭你。但有一些时间点,太感人所以你会哭。这不像冯小刚的电影,他拍商业电影,更成功,也是个很有力量的导演。他了解他的观众,并且知道怎么在中国拍电影。我还喜欢这部电影的另外一个原因是:在美国,最常见的一种情况是,这个人肯定会进监狱。我很惊讶警察居然让他走了。警察居然接受了说这不是他的错。美国的司法系统和美国的检察官都是魔鬼。这些魔鬼检察官,个个都想当英雄。实际上杀死Michael Jackson的也是这些人。他们想做英雄。这是美国的文化,每个人都想做英雄。检察官整天盯着大家,想把人送进监狱。男主角其实是可以被告的,罪名是过失杀人,意思是,你杀了人,但这并不是你的错。在美国,这样的人是会被定罪的,可以被关个两年或者更久。这很常见。但是电影里不是这样。我认为这是非常光明的一面。我很喜欢导演在这一点的处理,他并没有选择把他送进监狱,让他受苦。

Kathy: This is my first time to see this movie. I express three points. Firstly, the mood of people. In this movie, Lee always don’t want to speak, and always in very low mood. He always made people all in that mood. Secondly I want to say is cause and effect. The third one is how to live your life in a smooth or happy way. That scene which very touched me: Lee’s wife says sorry to Lee. I want to say sometimes bad things happen, we don't want bad things happen, when you say sorry or apologize, it needs courage and to be brave. And also after seeing this movie I want to say, how to play with the card. Bad card, good card, to live happy, that's a big point. If you want to have good effect, perhaps you have to plant good seed or good cause. That’s my point. When Lee was drinking beer and playing ping pong with his friends, his wife went downstairs and shouting to their friends that her baby were sleeping at 2 o'clock at night. This is the cause. One bad reason has created the tragedy. It’s something about Buddhism. You do something good, good things happen to you. You do something bad, bad things always come to you.

Kathy:这是我第一次看这部电影。我想说三点。一,人的情绪。电影中,Lee一直闷闷不语、情绪低落。他让其他人也陷入这种情绪。第二点,我想说有因必有果。第三点我想说的是,如何过好你的一生。这个场景让我很感动:Lee的太太跟他说了对不起,这需要勇气。看了这部电影我还想说,你怎么打好你手里的牌,过上幸福的人生,这是很重要的。你想要善终,就要种善因。Lee和他朋友在午夜两点的时候还在喝啤酒打乒乓,不管他的老婆孩子还要睡觉,这就是恶因。佛教讲究因果。因前果后---常做善事,好运自然相随;坏事做尽,则恶果难弃。

Erin: I want to say something about the movie. The first thing I want to talk about is the view in the movie, the location actually is very near Boston or even in Boston , I was in Boston at beginning of Oct. Everything I saw in the movie is very like the same--- the buildings, the tower, etc, everything is very similar.

Erin:我想先说说这个电影。首先是镜头呈现出来的景象,应该是离波士顿很近或者就在波士顿。今年10月份我正好的波士顿呆过,电影里的每一帧都像极了波士顿,那些房子、塔楼等等,感觉十分熟悉。

Erin: Another thing I am about to say is Safety is really very serious. Because recently I met another incident happened in our company. I have a very close colleague. We have close work-relationship. She cut her fingers by the machine. She is kind an old colleague and actually works for the company for 20 years. She is very familiar with the machine. Just one day it happened, she may lose her fingers on machine,It will happen just like that. I want to say: Maybe you can start another life, but you should learn from the mistakes you made before. In the movie, Lee, he may has the character like very easy to be drunk and to make some very big mistakes. Also his loss is very heart-broken for himself and his wife. even they love each other, but they can’t continue after everything happened. Very sad. We also mention some signal case in China. We read news about someday the whole family drive a car to some place, you are the driver, and every family member lost their life on their way. After that only yourself, It’s very hard to pass by.

其次我想说,安全问题真的很重要。最近我们公司发生了一件事情,我一个非常要好的同事操作机器时切到了手指。她在公司工作了将尽20年,对机器非常熟悉,可事情还是发生了。她真有可能失去她的手指!我想说,我们也许可以开始全新的生活,但需要学会从我们所犯的错误中吸取经验和教训。电影里,男主角Lee,他很容易喝醉,他的个性也许也很容易让他犯错,他失去的东西对他自己和他妻子来讲都是无法承受的,所以尽管依然相爱,但他们却无法再在一起,真的很让人难过。在中国我们也有比较典型的案例。我们常在新闻里看到,一家人自驾游,除了司机,路上一家人全都出事了只剩下司机,事后这根本无法释怀。

Mr.D: About Lee’s character, at the very beginning, he is janitor. he is always under pressure. Why? Man drinks too much, in China lot of men they always drink too much. Why? They have family pressure or work pressure. In this case, we see that he is very simple ordinary man, but he always facing some very very big challenges, for he lost 3 children and his brother. Every time he beats others and fights in the bar, It’s very pushing moment, like he can’t handle it anymore so he keeps fighting to hurt himself actually. he even tried to kill himself, in the police station he might could have suicide. He is not an alcoholic, but his circumstance, his life is still difficult under so much pressure. So he is using beer to escape actually.

Mr D:关于Lee这个角色,电影首先展示的是,他只是一个公寓管理员,一个清洁工,但背负了很多压力。为什么?——酒喝的太多。中国很多男人也嗜酒成性,为什么?——他们有太多来自家庭和工作的压力。电影里的Lee是一个非常简单普通的人,但他时刻都在面对着巨大的挑战,因为他失去了三个孩子还有他的哥哥。每次他在酒吧里和人打架都非常鲁莽,就好像他已经完全丧失了理智,而靠此不断地伤害着自己。你们还记得吗?在警察局的时候他曾经试图杀了他自己。他不是一个酒鬼,但他的整个生活在太多的压力下依然非常困难,所以他选择用酒精麻痹自己去逃避。

关于泪点 About Tears

Bingo: Actually, I was wondering how many times you cried when you were watching this movie, Selina?

Bingo:我在想,Selina你看这部电影的时候哭了几次?

Selina: Two times. Actually, I didn’t cry out at the beginning. When Lee’s wife tried to talk to him, the movie didn’t say what she had said to Lee, she just explained I shouldn’t say that to you and at that moment I cried out. Because it must be a tough thing happened to a family. Most of them must be cruel feeling when Lee said: " I can’t beat it." He was under stress, maybe his wife said some terrible words to him. At that moment, I cried out again. Because no one wants to see it happen. It is a destiny. Lee made mistake, but everyone made mistake, as the policeman says. But he has to be punished all the time and he kept punishing himself. That’s the one moment made me cry out. I don’t have too deep thoughts to talk about why I cried. Another moment is that Lee’s brother was happy to see Lee settle down and bought furniture for him. But later when Lee’s brother was gone, he is very lonely and only has Patrick. I cried again. I really don’t understand why Bingo asks me which moments I cried out. What do you mean and what do you want to know from my tears?

Selina:两次。实际上一开始我没有哭出来。Lee的太太跟他说,电影没说她之前对他说了什么,但是他太太跟他说,我不应该对你说那些,我就哭了。这对一个家庭来说太艰难了。当Lee说,我战胜不了它的时候,大家应该都有那种揪心的感觉。他承受了巨大的压力。可能他太太对他说了很多不好的话。在那一刻,我又哭了。没有人想这样的事情发生。这就是命运。Lee犯了错,每个人都会犯错,就像那个警察说的。但是Lee就要一直被惩罚,他也一直在惩罚自己。这是让我哭的另一个地方。我没有思考我为什么会哭。但后来,Lee的哥哥过世了,他很孤单,他只有Patrick了。我再次哭了。我不知道Bingo为什么问我在什么时候哭了,你想通过我的泪点知道什么?

Bingo: Why do I want to ask? Because sometimes we girls felt so touched and moved by some points. Every point, when you get it, it means you understand something different. You know I cried several times without knowing it's coming and it is the second time I watched this movie. The first time as Mr D. said it was difficult for me to understand the whole thing. But the second time, I understand it better. I think the movie wants to show us that something really bad will happen to us, whether we can get over it, whether we can move ahead, every person will have different choices. Every time if I get some bad things, I should be brave, I should find a way to get out. Because life is short, life is annoy, I want to make my life better and live in a peaceful or stable situation. Maybe compared with man, we girls are much easier to be touched. But I think women are much stronger inside.

Bingo:为什么我会问呢?可能我们女人在很多时候更容易被感动到。你能理解那些点,说明你也体会到了特殊性。我也毫无征兆地哭了好几次,虽然这已经是我第二次看这部电影了。就像Mr D.说的,第一次还真的挺难全部看懂的。但第二次我就更能理解了。我觉得电影里想说的就是,当生命中发生了很糟糕的情况,你是否能走出来,继续向前,每个人都会有不同的选择。每次坏事情发生了,我应该勇敢,应该找到一条出来的路。因为生命太短暂,又有太多不如意。但我希望自己可以尽可能过地快乐安心,平静顺意。可能与男性比起来,女性更容易被感动。但我觉得女性内里会更坚强

Emily: There is a very close relation with my parents. That’s why I was kept being moved by Patrick’s life. He had a closed relation with his father, especially when he saw the refrigerator which terrified him when his father was still in the refrigerator. Personally I valued people’s relationship with family, I guess it’s also the main point of this movie. That’s why I’m always with tears.

Emily:我和父母的关系很好。这是我为什么会被Patrick的生活感动到。他和他父亲关系很好,特别当他看到冰箱里的肉时,他想到他爸爸还在冰箱里。我个人很看重家庭关系,我觉得这也是这部电影的一个重点。这就是为什么我一直在哭。

话题:是否只有忘掉过去,一切才能重新开始?When you want to start a new life, do you have to say goodbye to your past?

Selina: We can’t say we have to or we don’t have to. Because we can not. We can’t say goodbye to our memories or our past. It’s experience, we have to accept it, we have to accept our mistakes we made. When bad experiences happened on us, we always try to look the bright side, it’s my opinion, no other choices .

Selina:我们根本无法选择是否应该去忘记,因为我们不能。已经发生的事情早就成为了我们的过去和记忆,我们无法忘却。过去所有皆是经历,我们只能接受---哪怕是我们自己曾经犯过的错。而面对不幸,我们总应试着去找寻出路,别无选择

Bingo: Totally agree with you. 举双手赞成!

Erin:It’s very positive to live in this way, but only when something bad happen to you. It’s easy to pass by. But if you make mistakes to others, there is guilty we have to carry on.

Erin:对过去说再见后轻装前行是一种很积极的生活方式,可这只在当不幸发生在自己身上时。一旦因为你的过错给别人带来了伤害,就会有内疚,然后不得不背负。

Kathy: I think I respect my life, It’s like a package or a fortune. I don’t want my past as a white paper. and It depends on how you value your past. If put them in a bag, when you settle a new life, your past becomes like a good experience or lesson, you’ll have a reference to start a new life, not just learn from or follow the other people. So Perhaps some bad past memories very suffers or are very little, but It will make you grow, no matter in your character, or your brain, or your fresh and blood. Sometimes, the big bad lessons teach you grow bigger. I won’t forget my past memories. And I will cherish them and sometimes I pick them out from the box. It makes me stronger and stand out.

Kathy:我想我尊重我的生活,我将它们视为宝藏和财富。我不希望自己的过去如同一张白纸,况且很多时候在于我们怎么评价自己的过去。当你想要开始一段新的生活,除了听取别人的建议,所有你经历过的东西都可以成为很好的参考。所以也许有些苦痛记忆让人受尽折磨,而有些毫不起眼,但它们都让我们成长,这些成长不仅会体现在我们的个性里,更尽数融入到我们的记忆和骨血里。那些让我们备受煎熬的经历必将使我们更加强大。所以我不会忘记我的过去,相反我会珍视它们,在需要的时候回顾它们,所有这一切都让我更加坚强也更加坚定。

Vincent: I see this topic with 2 things. The wife, when she ran to him, she said something like you are broken, I am broken too. So broken is a state of them, they can not be un-broken any more again. they are just broken already, even if I can be strong, I can be tough, I can not be fixed. I am still broken. Coz that’s 2 tragedies, 3 kids of their own. And Everyone of you remembers the result. Lee can not adopt another kid. because he just experienced another fire emergency in his house, he’s totally afraid that that tragedy gonna happen to another kid. So he’s saying something like, I can not beat it, to explain that to Patrick, the reason why I can not be with you anymore. I can not beat it, I simply can not beat it.

Vincent:我想说两件事情。首先,电影里Lee的妻子,当她和Lee相遇,她说,你心已碎,我的也是。我想说心碎是他们生命的一种状态,他们都无法”不心碎”了,因为他们已然如此。即使我们可以坚强、勇敢,但破碎的心永远无法再被修补,破碎的状态会一直持续。因为代价是两场悲剧、三个孩子无辜的生命。在座的每一位都清楚故事的结尾:Lee根本无法再收养另外一个孩子。因为家里发生的另外一场火灾让他担心同样的悲剧会再次在另一个孩子身上上演。所以他只能和Patrick解释,我真的做不到---我无法和你生活在一起---我做不到,我就是做不到!

Everybody here is saying that, You can not forget your past, your past is a part of you, you can not unbroken yourself, but still you have to carry it and walk, but how can you?Coz In the movie, Lee did not come up better, he did not come out of it. It’s just also broken.

每个人都说,我们无法忘怀自己的过去,过去已然是我们生命的一部分,我们无法回到心碎之前,而只能负重前行。但到底要如何去做?电影里,到最后Lee都没有走出来,他走不出来,他的人生无法再圆满。

I have another story to share.

My friends story, she and her bf.

在这里我想再说一个故事,我朋友和她男友的故事。

She met her true love in this city like a year ago, and they spent really happy 7 months together, that man is actually her true love. They live together. He even agreed to abandon his work back in US to live with her here in the city. After 7 months’ happy love life, one night, he just died besides her when they’re sleeping. Just died suddenly. She couldn’t do anything to save him YET, the doctors are good, but the nurse even blame her, you don’t know how to do CPR, if you do CPR in time, he may got a chance. Something like that. It’s not exact words but something like that. That makes her totally carry this burden for like really long time. And she says something like this to me, My boy friend loved me to the end of his life, so I will do the same. So she rejected every boy pursuing her recently and telling them I am not single just my bf is in another world.

她一年前在上海遇到了这个男孩---她的真爱,他们在一起度过了非常快乐的7个月时间。他为了她放弃了在国外的工作,来到上海和她一起生活。但就在一天夜里,就在她的身边,他在睡梦中突然辞世。她没有任何方法可以救他。医生没有说什么,但护士却责备她---如果你懂得怎么做CPR,说不定他就不会有事---类似于这样的话语,让她很长一段时间根本无法释怀。她这样告诉我,他一直爱我,到他生命尽头,我也会这样做。所以她拒绝了身边所有追她的男孩,告诉他们,我不是单身,只是我的男朋友生活在另外一个世界。

What I am trying to say is, we probably have seen so many stories, for good stories, people can rise up after some failure, after some tragedy. You can learn something, you can grow. It’s a very big opportunity to grow, but still there are some people, there are some situation, you actually can not beat it, and you don’t want to beat it, It’s part of your life now. And what I want to say is that, I think the movie wants to tells us, which teaches me a lot---

It is ok, even if you did not rise. It’s just your normal life. It happens to everybody, I am sorry it happens to you. You don’t have to rise all the time. It happens to you it’s fine. People don’t rise but they are good, they are fine.

我想说,我们也许见过太多故事。好的那些故事,经历过失败和苦痛,我们依然可以奋起,从中学习进而成长。但总有一些人经历过的一些事,就是无法走出来,他们也不想走出来,所有那些经历都沉淀下来变成了他们生命的一部分。这个电影教会我许多,我觉得它想告诉我们的是——如果遭受到苦痛,你无法释怀,那不要紧。这就是我们正常的生活,每个人生命中都可能会遇到这些不幸,而我们无需每次都坚强。如果恰好你遇到了,不要紧。人们遇到了,但没有振作起来,这不要紧。

Charles: The point of how to come back from the great tragedy, it’s also everyone’s goal. But they have rights to grief. They can only count on their own feels. Everyone deals things different. Also I am trying to point out that it is really hard to come back from mistakes like just by yourself. I did the thing once. how do I know that I won’t do it again. I won’t beat it again. I think the only way to come back from serious tragedy is more like a spiritual call, which is not as common as her in China but in probably western countries they have a spiritual or religious sort of faith. I do see that people have overcome things that will be very difficult. Kind of putting all the emotion burden baggage into a higher power, into a kind of believing. You can believe in more.

Charles:每个人都想要从巨大的悲剧事件中恢复,但同时他们也有权力继续悲伤。人们只能靠自己来恢复。每个人处理问题的方式不一样。但是我想说,仅靠自己去面对犯下的错误,实在太难了。我错过一次,我怎么知道不会再做错下一次?我觉得从巨大的悲剧中恢复的办法可能只能通过精神力量。这在中国不是特别常见,但在一些西方国家,他们有信仰和精神力量。我确实见过有人从巨大的悲伤中走了出来,把他们所有的情感包袱都寄情于更大的力量 —— 一种信仰中。依靠这种信仰,你可能可以恢复。

Selina: When they two talk about some religion things, I also found out religion things. There’s a movie called The Kite Runner, It’s a good movie about kind of religion things.

It comes out the point one time when I was thinking, is there any religion says that you must be punished or not? From this movie, I don’t know if it’s true or not that in the America’s law, people don’t need to be punished or go to jail if they made mistakes like this. But, Lee actually has been punished all the time. (Mr.D emphasized that Normally they go to jail, 8 by 10, or maybe more) , I am not sure what happened in the movie is true or not. But I think Maybe it’s better for Lee to go to jail. I don’t know what will really happen in jail, but in China, when you come out from jail, your mood has been changed. people there are trying to teach you, help you, you will be changed. If you have to do everything by yourself, that’s very hard. Especially Lee’s personality, he doesn’t communicate with anyone, he just closes himself, It’s difficult.

Selina:他们讨论到关于宗教的事情,我也有些感受。有一部电影叫做《追风筝的人》,电影很棒,包含了很多宗教的元素。我有时候就在想,有些宗教总说人会受到惩罚。但这部电影让我思考---我不知道在美国,人犯了错,需不需要进监狱受惩罚,但是Lee其实一直在被惩罚着(Mr.D强调在美国犯了这种错十有八九都是会进监狱的)。我不知道电影关于这个情节是否是真的---Lee的原因间接害死了自己的三个孩子,但没有进监狱---但我认为也许他进监狱会更好。我不知道监狱里会发生什么,但在中国,进了监狱再出来,你整个人的状态都会改变。因为监狱里会有人教化你,帮助你,你会改变。如果只是自己一个人面对所有的事情,那太难了。特别是Lee的性格,他不愿意和任何人交流,他对所有人封闭了心门,太痛苦了。

Erin: I think for the normal people, if you make mistakes, after that, you actually behave like a child. Every time when it happens, you behave like a child.

Erin:很多普通人,一旦犯了错,就会表现得像孩子。每次都一样。

Mr D: In the US normally It happens on these people that have no control with their life. When they go to prison, government takes over them. Prison is actually really a good place for people without control. Because they got monitor system and they can set a camera for 24*7. Very good place for people without control you know. Because they had more monitoring system they can see it from the camera 24*7. Plus, they have all the safety, medicals,  safety, the foods safety, they don’t have to make money, and they have a place to live. So every prison, possible this, this is the case go to legal system. Maybe at least you come to the jail for one year, two years or three years, because the trial takes very long in US. And government has to pay for all the legal fees. Like in California or any other states. So, but this is not his fault, the system stands that, it’s very common that systems charge him, to actually take over him. That’s what happens most of the time.

在美国,这通常发生在那些毫无自控能力的人身上。一旦他们进去监狱,政府会接管他们。对很多无法自控的人来说,监狱其实是非常好的地方。因为监狱有全方位的监控系统。而且他们有健全的医疗系统,安保系统,食品也很卫生。他们也不用赚钱,有一个很好的可以居住的地方。以司法系统来说,你可能进监狱一年、两年、三年,因为审判在美国要花很久。政府要为所有的开销买单,加州和其他地方都是。但这也不是他的错啊,司法系统也认,这种情况下提起诉讼也很常见。大部分情况下如此。

Selina Gu: There is one point I want to mention that the guy calls Lee, If I think he should go to jail. I think I support the movie make him go to jail. Because if he didn't go to jail, also he didn’t be punishment in his physical punishment. But, if he didn’t go to jail, he will be in mental punishment several times. So if he live in the jail also he will surfer too much. But however his guilty feeling will reduce it. So it’s good for him. I think this movie make me, how to say, I think this guy is very pessimistic. Normally I watched a lot of American movies are very optimistic. But this movie, this American movie is very special. I guess if I was the director, I want to change it a little bit the story. I think the last, I wish this guy will open his mind, he will accept his nephew.

Selina Gu:我想说的一点是,我觉得Lee应该进监狱。我支持让他进监狱。他进监狱的话,肉体上就会受到惩罚;但是如果他没进监狱的话,心灵上就会受到很多次惩罚。所以如果他进监狱的话,他会受苦,但是这会减少他的负罪感。对他来说很好。我觉得这部电影很悲观。通常我看很多美国电影,他们都很乐观。但是这一部,我觉得是一部非常特别的美国电影。我觉得如果我是导演,我可能会修改一下故事。结尾处,我希望男主能敞开心扉,接受他的侄子。

Bingo: Actually I’m not sure if you guys found out at the end of this movie, when Lee play the ball with Patrick, you know, he seems like a little bit happier than before. And he suggests that, he said he is going to find a apartment with two rooms. One is for Patrick, in case he comes to visit him. So I think, at least in my part, I take that as Lee wants to open his heart to the new life. Even though maybe he moves a little slower but he wants to try. So that’s why I think, at the end, you know the director give us some hope. (Mr D: they connected that, right? We see that, at the beginning, at the end we see that they have the connection we see ) Yes yes. That’s, I think you know, because everyone said this is a tragedy.  Lee didn’t come out, and you know, maybe, this kind of pain, were these broken heart feelings will always be there. But still, he wants to have some try with Patrick.

Bingo:我不知道大家发现了没有,电影结尾处,Lee和Patrick玩球的时候,他看起来比之前开心一点了。他也建议说,他要找一个两间房的公寓。如果Patrick来看他的话,会给他一间房。所以至少我认为,Lee已经对新生活敞开心扉了。虽然他做得有点慢,但始终是在尝试。所以我觉得导演最终给了我们希望(Mr D: 他们最后有了连接,我们看了开头也看了结尾,我们看到结尾他们有了连接了。)是的,我觉得说,每个人都说这是一场悲剧,Lee没有走出来,这种感觉让人心碎,但他还是想和Patrick尝试一下。

Mr D: This is not a pessimistic movie. It’s a movie more like a base from a true story but we don’t see that. First movie and second movie one thing is common is, this movie also has  the same director who wrote the story. So they basically looks like that all these stories came from his experience. I don’t see it pessimisticly. In US, people don’t go to jail for punishment. It’s called correction center, rehabilitation center. In America prison is to correct people. If somebody has a problem with alcohol or other things, the prison is in government takes over. And they have many many schools inside, many training programs, to make you a better person. That’s what happens. For some people, especially very young people like 20 years old, maybe they’re angry, they kill somebody. So they spent 20 years in the prison and when they come out they misfit in the society. What happens is, they keep coming back, they come out but they can’t survive so they go back again. They feel prison is their home. So government, US government actually changes the name of prison now it’s called United States correction center or rehabilitation center.

Mr D:这不是部悲观的电影。这更像一部真实事件改编的电影。上一次观影活动和这一次,有一点是一致的:电影的导演也是编剧。所以基本上整个故事都是来自他的亲身经历。我不觉得它悲观。在美国,进监狱不是为了惩罚你。监狱被称为改造中心。美国的监狱是用来改造人的。如果有人有酗酒或者其他问题,政府会来帮助你。监狱里有很多学校,很多训练课程,让你成为更好的人。对有些人来说,特别是20岁出头的年轻人,他们很冲动,甚至会杀人。他们在监狱里一呆20年,出来之后适应不了外面的生活,又只能回去。他们觉得监狱才是家。所以美国政府其实是把监狱改名了,叫美国改造中心。

Mr D: I think also this is culture difference too you know. In US everything is transparent. You can see everything, everything there’s nothing to hide. Government can hide very few things, something, only something with national security, right? But, rather than that, everything is open book. You can see the movie the prison break so popular in China. It’s popular. So in China the culture is Non-Transparent. Somebody is divorced they’re afraid to tell their friends because their friends they will judge them because they think divorce is a failure. So it’s not the government’s fault in China, I see the culture is very different, it’s not bad or good, the culture is non-transparent culture you don’t want to share your private things or failure or negative part of your life. That’s the culture. Not just in China, I think in Asia many other Countries are similar right?

Mr D:我觉得这也是一个文化差异。在美国,所有都是透明,你什么都能看到,没有东西是隐藏的。政府只能藏得住很少的东西,比如和国家安全问题。除了这个以外,其他东西都是公开的。你可以看到电影《越狱》在中国非常流行。中国文化是不透明的。有人离婚了,会不想要告诉朋友,朋友们会觉得你很不好。因为离婚被认为很失败。所以这不是政府的失败,是文化不同。不是评价文化的好坏,只是中国是个不透明的文化。中国人不分享私事、坏事。这就是中国的文化。不仅在中国,亚洲很多国家都是这样的不是吗?

In US is, even if you make a mistake you say I’m sorry I made a mistake. Now you see what's happening in Hollywood right? Everybody was charged with this and that, but they don’t hide anything,  next day they admitting whatever they did. They have to do that. That’s like credibility. If you are lying you have no credibility. So the culture is transparent. You have to say whatever you did, and then say I'm so sorry. You see what happened in Tiger Woods right? He's totally gone. He was No 1, then he drops to top 5, then he drop to top 10, then he drop to top 100, then he drop to 500,  now he's below 500. This is Tiger Woods, I can't image, this is one of the most example in front of us. And he's so young, his career is totally over, just one mistake. Remember? I just see from the culture why this movie can be so difficult for some Chinese. I don't see it's a pessimistic movie, I see it's, he's mentioned realistic, yeah, that's right. This is not what you see in America in Television, This is real American life.

在美国,你做错了事,你说对不起我做错了事情。你看到好莱坞发生的事情了对吗。每个人每天都受到各种指控,但他们不隐藏什么,第二天他们就承认自己做了什么。他们不得不这么做。这是个人信用。你撒谎,你就没了信用。所以文化是透明的。你必须说出来你做了什么,然后说我错了。你看到Tiger Woods身上发生的事情了对吗。他现在完全没声音了。本来世界排名第1,然后到世界第5,然后第10,再到第100,第500,现在已经低于500了。这可是Tiger Woods啊,我无法想象,这是一个很好的例子。他还很年轻,但他的事业已经彻底完了,只因为一个错误。记得吗。我只是从文化的角度说明一下为什么这部电影对中国人来说有点困难。我不觉得这是一个悲观的电影,这是一部现实的电影。这不是你能在美国电视上看到的东西,这是真实的美国生活。

Kathy: Realistic, reality, most of people want a wonderful life but people be ill everyday. So in past, present, or think about future, it's a big problem. So this is a movie. I think our people like you are we all can be a actor. So what life your want, you can create, you can organize it, you can plan it. So, for example, like today, I choose to be here, I choose to watch movie with you all, so I create this thing. That’s what I want to say.

Kathy:说现实,大部分人都希望一个美好的生活,但每天都会有不幸发生到人身上。过去、现在、未来,都是一个问题。每个人都是生活的演员。你想过什么样的生活,你自己去创造、组织、规划。比如今天,我选择来到这里,我选择和大家一起看电影,所以我创造了这些。

Selina Yin: I just want to follow some points of Kathy . I think what she wants to mention is that we have to behave ourselves. You create your own life. You destine your destiny. You decide what you do. You decide what you would be. What you do destines how your life would be. Like that.

Selina Yin:我想跟着Kathy的话来说几句。我觉得她想说的是我们必须在意自己的言行。你创造了自己的生活,你决定自己的命运,你决定你去做什么。所以是你自己决定你的生活最终是怎么样的。

话题:对于有过失的爱人,选择“相濡以沫“或“相望于江湖”?Topic: Facing a faulty spouse, you choose to give it up? or work it out?

Vincent: So actually some of you also mentioned that for a faulty partner, cuz the man definitely did something wrong, although it’s just a mistake, although everybody cannot avoid making mistakes, but actually he did something wrong that he made it happen, he made it happen right? So facing your faulty partner as a wife or as a husband, do you still, you should stick to him or her try to work it out? Or you just give it up, like what the wife did, just choose to divorce, or just to leave? Because you, when you get married, you of cause you definitely took a vow, you know the vow is like’ 誓言’, you swear that no matter up or down, we’ll be together, I’ll be with you, to death do us apart. This is a vow of every marriage.

Vincent:大家刚才已经提到这个话题了。对一个有过失的爱人,男主确实有过失,虽然这是一个错误,虽然每个人都无法避免犯错,但无论如何都是他导致了悲剧的发生。所以面对这样一个有过失的爱人,你会依然选择和他在一起吗尝试解决问题吗?还是你干脆就放弃,像剧中的太太那样,直接就选择离婚了之后离开?因为你在结婚的时候,你发过誓,无论顺境还是逆境,我们都要在一起。我会和你在一起,直到死亡把我们分开。这是每段婚姻的誓言啊。

Mr D: Chinese marriage too?

Mr D:中国的婚姻也这样吗?

Vincent: Sometimes. I heard people do that. But not all of them. I heard people do that, in Chinese marriage. I heard that, definitely. But, I mean, this is what marriage should avowed, right? Even up and down, I should still be with you, we should work it out. But sometimes we cannot blame the wife, to make that choice. Cuz it’s so huge, overwhelming tragedy happened. So what’s your opinion about this?

Vincent:有时是这样的。我听说过有人是这样的。但不是所有人,我肯定听说过。但这应该是婚姻的本质对吗?无论顺境逆境,我还是应该和你在一起,我们应该尝试是解决的。但有时候我们又不应该去责怪那个太太做出那样的选择。因为发生的事情太严重了,令人无法招架。大家的意见呢?

Bingo: Actually the movie didn’t tell us that it was the wife’s choice. Maybe she said something really bad. But maybe the choice was made by Lee. (Vincent: Ok by Lee yes maybe) During the whole movie you can find that it was Lee who carris so much burden and he cannot get out of it. Actually his wife told him that she still loves him but she doesn’t want Lee to live like that, she doesn’t want he to be dead, not physical dead, but experience dead.

Several weeks ago I watched another movie ‘me before you’. The main actor, he was just an normal guy but he got the bad traffic accident and he cannot stand up afterwards, just like a vegetable. And then he met another girl and fell in love with this girl. He cannot accept himself to be like that as always. But this girl wants to make him change his idea because he signed the contract with some agent and he will suicide.  After 6 months he will kill himself like the signed contract with his father as well. This girl found the truth and she wants to make him change his mind because she loves him and he loves her as well. We always say love can change everything but finally in this movie the man still got injection and died, the girl chose to be beside with him till the end. So I think maybe sometimes it’s just we have to respect the people with love, their idea about life, about everything. We cannot do whatever we want but we respect themselves.

Bingo:实际上电影里也没说这个是太太的选择吧。可能她只是说了一些狠话。可能这个决定是Lee做出的。整个电影里你会看到是Lee一直背负这份沉重。他的太太并不希望他就这样死去。不是指身体的死亡,是指内心的。几个星期前我看了另一部电影叫”Me before you”。男主角发生了严重的交通事故,不能恢复,变成了一个植物人。然后他遇到了另一个女孩,相爱了。他其实一直无法接受自己受伤之后的样子。女孩希望他能改变主意,可他已经签了安乐死的协议。他和他的父亲说自己只会再活6个月。女孩知道真相后想要他回心转意,因为他们如此相爱。我们经常说爱情能改变一切,但电影最后男孩还是选择了安乐死。女孩选择陪在男孩身边到最后一刻。所以我觉得有时我们需要尊重我们的爱人,我们不能只在乎自己的想法,我们需要尊重他们。

Vincent: I see. Actually I want to add a line to this, there’s a US TV series called ‘ True detectives ‘ It’s a really good one. I recommend it to everyone.. The US series. The main character's kid also dead. And of cause they divorced too. The male character divorced his wife. And his line of comment of divorce that marriage is too fragile this kind of thing. Marriage is too fragile So…

Vincent:我想加一句,有一部美剧叫”真探”,很不错,我推荐给每个人。男主角的孩子也死了,然后理所当然的他也离婚了。他对离婚的评价就一句话:婚姻太脆弱,承受不了这样的事。

Mr D: Depends on the power of marriage. like think in our generation are in seventy, eighty, ninety’s generation the power is very difficult to find. We have our parent’s generation they have fifty years marriage but it's almost impossible to maintain fifty years marriage today. I think it's still a culture difference. In US also, or in European Country also in Western culture, it’s very common to keep a good relationship with ex girlfriends or ex wives. But in Asian culture especially in Chinese culture you like to totally cut it off and you don’t like to communicate with any ex because you think it’s a trouble. It’s very common, in America it’s common that you have a ex wife and you become friends and you can talk. This is tragedy, this is serious in a relationship, challenge here. But in normal situation, I almost talked to all my girl friends in the past after we separated. Because that maybe helps to move on. (Vincent: Ok interesting.)

Mr D:这取决于婚姻的力量。在70、80、90后中间,这样的力量很难被找到。我们父母一代,他们会有50年长的婚姻,但是现在很难会有50年的婚姻出现。我觉得这还是一个文化差异。在美国、欧洲或者西方文化中,和前女友或者前妻保持着良好的关系很常见。但在亚洲文化,特别是中国文化中,你们喜欢彻底断绝与前任的关系,因为你们觉得他们是麻烦。这很常见。在美国很常见的是你和前妻会成为朋友,你们有往来。剧中的悲剧很严重,是很大的挑战。但是在正常情况下,我一直和我的前任们保持往来,这对自己的今后是有益处的。

Kathy: I want tell a story. A girl ask her grandma she want to divorce. So she wants the opinion from her grandma. So her grandma said: in the past, if something is broken, we will fix it, we want to fix it. But now when it's broken, just want to change a new one.

Kathy:我想说一个故事。一个女孩告诉她外婆,她想离婚。她想听听她外婆的看法。她外婆说:在过去,东西坏了我们会修;现在呢?东西坏了我们就换。

Selina: I was thinking why this wife couldn't try to understand him, if she really loves him. Because you can see that Lee is actually a big boy, his personality is like that. His wife love him because she sees his personality. So I couldn't understand that if there is big problem happened or big mistake happened, if she really likes Lee, she should have pointed out before Lee says what's happen. You see at the beginning when the baby was sleeping, Lee behaves just like a boy. His wife alway feels that she likes it. Even when she sent her friends away she was still in love with him. It didn't happen on me, maybe it's easier for me to say this, but it's too difficult for this wife to undertake it with Lee together, that's why she blamed everything on Lee. That's why at the end she blamed herself oh I shouldn't say that to you. She can not undertake it. Maybe everyone has same problem, when in love, you would think that I would understand my partner. No matter what happens, I would undertake this mistake/problem together. Everyone wants to, but maybe they can not, it's just too hard to. Before when I was in love, I also thought of that I would undertake everything with you, but things happened you know. It's just destiny. When you were in that mood, you couldn't jump out. If the wife hasn't got marriage again, maybe they will be together again. It's just destiny, but at that moment, as Lee said, he can't beat it.

Selina:我在想,为什么他太太不能原谅他呢---如果她真的爱他的话。我们都能看出来,Lee就是个大男孩,他个性就是这样。他的太太爱他就是因为他有这样的个性。我不能理解,如果她真的爱他,这么大的问题发生之前,她为什么不说出来了?一开始,Lee的孩子还在睡觉的时候,Lee的行为就像一个孩子。即使她赶走了Lee的朋友,她还是爱他的。事情没有发生在我身上,所以我这样说也许很容易,可是对Lee的妻子来说,要和Lee一起面对这件事情,还是太难了,这也是为什么最初她把一切都怪在Lee身上,而在最后,她又责怪自己当初不该说那些狠话,她自己也无法面对。可能我们大家都一样,在爱情中,我们都希望我们是理解我们的另一半的,不管发生什么,我们都要一起承担。我们每个人都这样想,但他们却无法做到,因为太难了。以前我爱一个人,我想的是我可以和我的另一半一起面对所有,但有时候事情发生,就好像是冥冥中注定的。一旦陷到那样的情绪里,就无法再逃出来。电影里,如果Lee的妻子没有再婚,也许他们还有可能重新来过,可一切都是命运。在那一刻,我深深理解了Lee,为什么他一直在说,他无法和命运抗争。

Bingo: If you ask me this question, I chose to stand by. But he wants to quit, wants to give up, I will respect and I will give up. I will do my best to stand by and to be with him. After that if he still wants to choose another way to be  himself, I will respect.

Bingo:如果你们问我,我会选择坚持。但如果是我的另一半不想继续而想放弃,我想我也会尊重他,我也会放手。但在那之前,我会尽我所能陪在他身边。如果一切还是无法改变,他一定要选择属于自己的方式,我也定会尊重。

话题:有心理创伤的两个人该如何劝慰对方?How do 2 person with psychic trauma comfort each other?

Vincent: Just like what Lee suffers, his friend George also lost a really good friend. But in the funeral services he tried to say something like “how are you holding up”, then he suddenly decided to take that back. “That's a really stupid question, I'm gonna take that back.”

Vincent:电影里Lee失去了哥哥,George则失去了最好的朋友,他们都遭受了巨大的伤痛。在葬礼上,George试图宽慰Lee,他问:“你怎么样?还撑得住吗?”,但马上他就决定收回这句话,“我真蠢,我不该问这个问题。”

Selina: I really want to say something about this. Also I want to know if I'm doing right. In China, if your friend has some bad experience, you just comfort them, you don't tell them the truth. You try to avoid talking about the problem. Like think's done is done, gone is gone, try to say oh everyone makes mistakes. But I don't like that, because to me, when people say that, some time I feel so silly you know.  Next time I will make the same mistake. So I do like those kind of friends that are really honest to me. And speak out that Selina that thing is wrong, you did wrong, I would appreciate. I don't have friends who made such a big mistake, but for girls breaking up with boys this kind of thing, I will directly point out what mistakes you've made, and what is the truth what you have to face to, and how your future life would be if you can not jump out of this situation, no one will help you if you don't help yourself. More direct. I'm not sure it's good or not, some of my friend says it's not good.

Selina:关于这个问题,我有很多想说。我也想知道我的做法是否正确。在中国,如果我们的朋友经历了一些不幸,我们只会安慰他们,而不会选择告诉他们事实,而且我们还会尽量避免和他们谈论相关的问题。他们常挂在嘴边的就是,事情已经发生了,过去的就让它过去吧,哪有不犯错的人呢?可我非常不喜欢这样。我喜欢对我真诚的朋友。他们可以直接对我说,Selina,你错了,我会非常感激。我身边没有朋友出现过什么重大的事故,但像女孩子和男生分手这种事情,我会更直接指出来,你到底犯了什么错,你将会面对哪些事实,如果你走不出来,你未来的人生将会是怎样,如果你不自我救赎,没有人会帮你。我真的不知道这样到底对不对,我朋友有时就会说这样其实很不好。

Vincent: This question happened to me too. Like I said my friend just lost her boy friend. Every time she speaks something about her boyfriends, I just can't say anything, I just have to shut up. I don't know how to comfort her for such a big tragedy.

Vincent:我也遇到过这样的问题。我之前提过,我一个朋友失去了她的男朋友,每次她说起关于她男友的事情,我都无话可说。因为我压根儿不知道怎样去安慰一个受到了如此巨大伤害的人,所以我只能选择闭嘴。

Mr D.: I'd like to share my personal experience in China, I lived in China for 10 years. Something happened in 2013 this time and I lived in Hotel for 41 months. So when I came here the last time actually I was in the hotel. 2 weeks ago my friend from US, ended my hotel life. He said I have a very big house in Changning, you're welcome to live in our home. After I moved to his home with my daughter, 6 years old. I don't want to go back to hotel anymore, living in a hotel for 40 months, you can image what can happen to your finance, what will happen to you life. Because not that I've chosen it deliberately, I have Chinese land load nightmare. They cheat the foreigners every day and some time they cheat them really bad. I was afraid of those land load, thinking that maybe I will have another bad land load. So I thought hotel might be a nice way to avoid them but that's not true. First 5 years was very lucky I met good land load, last 5 years I was very unlucky to have some bad land loads, so. Because in Shanghai you don't believe in government, you don't believe in relationship, so you try to solve everything by yourself. But whatever you do, there is no straight line of life, there is always something, somedays are good, somedays are not good. It's part of life.

Mr D.:我想和大家分享下我在中国的一些经历。我在中国住了10年,2013年的时候发生了一些事情,我在一个旅馆住了41个月。其实直到上次我来和大家见面那个周日,我还住在旅馆里。两个星期前,我朋友从美国来,结束了我的旅馆生涯。他对我说,我在长宁有个很大的房子,欢迎你来住。在我和我6岁的女儿搬进他家后,我再也不想回酒店了。在一个酒店住了40几个月,可以想象这要花多少钱,又会给我的生活带来什么变化。我不是要故意说这件事情,但中国的房产中介对我来讲就是一个噩梦。他们每天都在欺骗外国人,有时候真的非常过分。我很害怕这些房产中介,控制不住地担心自己会不会就被骗到里面去。所以我以为住酒店也许是个好主意,这样可以不让自己被骗,但其实我错了。最初的5年我非常幸运,我遇到了非常好的中介,但是之后的5年,全都是不好的。所以,也许在上海,我们不相信政府,我们也不相信亲密关系,所以我们一直努力尝试依靠自己解决所有问题。但不管我们做什么,都没有捷径可走,总是会有些沟沟坎坎。时好时坏,这才是生活。



下一次国际观影由意大利人Gianluca主持。他在中国生活了7年,是非常热衷的跨文化交流爱好者。中外会一起观看这部非常励志的电影《寿司之神》。报名请加微信 vincentcwx

Next movie talks will be hosted by Gianluca from Italy, who live in China for 7 years, also being a passionate culture lover. Expats and locals will watch this encourage movie Jiro: Dreams of Sushi and have an intercultural discussion. Add wechat: vincentcwx for more info.


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